Sliders
+3
Andrew
Kevin
snivilous
7 posters
Page 1 of 2
Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Sliders
So I got a bunch of steel tubing to make some sliders. Though when I talked to my dad, he said that the moment caused by falling on the slider would screw up the frame or make it so the slider would bend so the frame doesn't get hurt. We're going to look into putting a transverse member from one side of the truck to the other so the sliders will leverage on that when they get hit, and then we can also beef out the gas tank area since the stock bash plate is a POS there.
I'm just wondering why people weld sliders on to their trucks. Either you screw the truck up by landing on it, or it gets bent and needs to be reshaped in which case you can't just unbolt it from the truck. Or do I just have a misconception on sliders? Because I'm figuring they get used when the truck slips off a rock to the side and falls a few inches and then a giant impulse is put on the slider.
I'm just wondering why people weld sliders on to their trucks. Either you screw the truck up by landing on it, or it gets bent and needs to be reshaped in which case you can't just unbolt it from the truck. Or do I just have a misconception on sliders? Because I'm figuring they get used when the truck slips off a rock to the side and falls a few inches and then a giant impulse is put on the slider.
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
I'm of the opinion that bolt-on sliders are for guys that aren't planning on using them. If you use enough bolts to be as strong as a good weld, then you've got so many bolt holes that the slider will tear off anyway.
That said, even the best job of welding won't stop a slider from bending into your bodywork if you land on it hard enough, but when you're wheeling that hard you're beyond caring about a little bodywork anyway . It's got to be pretty hard to bend 1.5" DOM, though. Use quality DOM tubing, be sure to use gussets and fishplates, and good solid welds. Leave the bolt-ons for the mall crawlers.
That said, even the best job of welding won't stop a slider from bending into your bodywork if you land on it hard enough, but when you're wheeling that hard you're beyond caring about a little bodywork anyway . It's got to be pretty hard to bend 1.5" DOM, though. Use quality DOM tubing, be sure to use gussets and fishplates, and good solid welds. Leave the bolt-ons for the mall crawlers.
Re: Sliders
I'm not worried about the slider bending or how to mount it, my main concern is the frame bending when the truck falls on the slider. I would rather the slider break than the frame, and that frame looks pretty wimpy to be holding a 2000lb weight on the slider with a 12" lever arm.
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
You will never land hard enough to bend your frame - unless you fall off a 100 ft. cliff...and land on your sliders...
I've come down on mine pretty hard and from a good distance of a couple of feet - never had a problem. The sliders on my Tundra are currently bolted on with Grade 8 bolts and didn't have a problem going through Hell's Revenge. I never really came down hard on them but definitely scraped over lots of rocks. Welding these would remove the bolts from the bottom of the frame and reduce the risk of tearing them off. Investigating them after Hell's showed the dragged across the slick rock a number of times...luckily none broke.
I've come down on mine pretty hard and from a good distance of a couple of feet - never had a problem. The sliders on my Tundra are currently bolted on with Grade 8 bolts and didn't have a problem going through Hell's Revenge. I never really came down hard on them but definitely scraped over lots of rocks. Welding these would remove the bolts from the bottom of the frame and reduce the risk of tearing them off. Investigating them after Hell's showed the dragged across the slick rock a number of times...luckily none broke.
Andrew- Resident Strongman
- Posts : 1019
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Saratoga Springs
Re: Sliders
snivilous wrote:I'm not worried about the slider bending or how to mount it, my main concern is the frame bending when the truck falls on the slider. I would rather the slider break than the frame, and that frame looks pretty wimpy to be holding a 2000lb weight on the slider with a 12" lever arm.
If you're really worried about the frame, plate it. But I wouldn't worry. If Andrew's Tundra can drop a couple feet on a stick of DOM and survive, your 4Runner will be fine.
Re: Sliders
Like others have said it would take much more force than you're likely to see to bend the frame. I've landed on my sliders pretty good and just put a dent in the tubing. In my opinion sliders are there to get beat-up, dented, thrashed, and all that. I'd rather beat the hell out of my sliders than a door or other body panel. If anything major happens to my sliders I can cut them off, grind the frame plate flat, and weld another set on.
dutchman- Resident Gorilla
- Posts : 1912
Join date : 2012-08-21
Re: Sliders
Alright, so I started designing and making my sliders today.
Via the expert use of cardboard for design and mockup:
So they will probably be 68" long or so, as that is about the distance from the front of the rear wheel well to the front mud flap. They will be bolted on using 4 of these arms. (My welds got a lot better after this one, this was my prototype piece and the machine wasn't quite dialed in).
This way the sliders can be removed if need be. There will be a piece of angle iron connecting the bottom of the frame to the arm, with two bolts that will be tapped into the frame. Then there will be one bolt on the top of the arm into the frame. This way, when force is applied to the slider it will try to rotate about the edge of the frame. The bolts on the bottom of the frame will be put into shear with the top bolt not doing anything as the top of the arm will try to be compressed into the frame. The arms will also have triangular diagonals on the outer section to reinforce the vertical segment.
I may also add one or two cross members that connect both sliders. That way, when one side is forced up the cross member will be put into tension and try to pull the other side down. Because of the larger lever arm created from the cross member relative to the distance the slider comes off from the body, it would easily be able to withstand a 2000 pound point load (the slider, assuming the frame wouldn't crumple which is another story). I would like to do this, as will reduce the moment on the frame stopping the frame from twisting where the load is.
The sliders have a 12 degree angle to them, this way they clear the body panels by an inch to allow for when the sliders deflect. They stick out from the frame 12", with an additional 2" where the lengthwise tube will be. This way they stick out far enough to act as a step. The tubing is 2x2 with .075" thick side wall. The sliders will also incorporate a kick out at the rear.
I think we (help from my dad) designed these as best can be done without doing a lot of reinforcing.
I'll post more pictures as I get them finished.
Via the expert use of cardboard for design and mockup:
So they will probably be 68" long or so, as that is about the distance from the front of the rear wheel well to the front mud flap. They will be bolted on using 4 of these arms. (My welds got a lot better after this one, this was my prototype piece and the machine wasn't quite dialed in).
This way the sliders can be removed if need be. There will be a piece of angle iron connecting the bottom of the frame to the arm, with two bolts that will be tapped into the frame. Then there will be one bolt on the top of the arm into the frame. This way, when force is applied to the slider it will try to rotate about the edge of the frame. The bolts on the bottom of the frame will be put into shear with the top bolt not doing anything as the top of the arm will try to be compressed into the frame. The arms will also have triangular diagonals on the outer section to reinforce the vertical segment.
I may also add one or two cross members that connect both sliders. That way, when one side is forced up the cross member will be put into tension and try to pull the other side down. Because of the larger lever arm created from the cross member relative to the distance the slider comes off from the body, it would easily be able to withstand a 2000 pound point load (the slider, assuming the frame wouldn't crumple which is another story). I would like to do this, as will reduce the moment on the frame stopping the frame from twisting where the load is.
The sliders have a 12 degree angle to them, this way they clear the body panels by an inch to allow for when the sliders deflect. They stick out from the frame 12", with an additional 2" where the lengthwise tube will be. This way they stick out far enough to act as a step. The tubing is 2x2 with .075" thick side wall. The sliders will also incorporate a kick out at the rear.
I think we (help from my dad) designed these as best can be done without doing a lot of reinforcing.
I'll post more pictures as I get them finished.
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
Are you planning on welding them to the side and underneath the frame rail?
dutchman- Resident Gorilla
- Posts : 1912
Join date : 2012-08-21
Re: Sliders
dutchman wrote:Are you planning on welding them to the side and underneath the frame rail?
There will be two bolts tapped into the bottom of the frame.
That's really all that is needed, and two of these arms per slider. We're also going to just put a tack on the vertical part of the arm on the top of the frame to help when someone steps on it, but as far as strength for landing on rocks and stuff, the two bolts is all that is needed.
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
So we might go to a three arm per side layout, because at a 3' separation of the current two arms, if I jack from the middle it will only lift about 1800lbs (using assumptions about the steel we are using). Though of course I can just move the jack closer to an arm to jack from.
We stuck the arms against the frame, then drilled and tapped the holes. Only got one side done today.
We didn't realize just how thin the bottom of the box frame is. We only have about two threads of engagement in our 3/8" bolts. Though again, they should be getting loaded almost completely in shear so the threads shouldn't be a failure point since they aren't being loaded. We did a quick test with our jack to see if there was any significant deflection. The jack kept rolling out since the arms are angled, but we loaded the one arm up with probably 1000+ lbs and there was no visible deflection. My dad (180 lbs) almost jumped on the one arm to minimal deflection (though it's not strong in that direction, which is why it will be tacked on the top).
We then took a 68" long piece and stuck it up against the two arms bolted to the truck, and the fit was about as dead nuts as you could want it. The two arms were as close to perfectly in plane as you could get! My dad held it up and I tacked it in place, and then fully welded on the lengthwise section to the arms after unbolting from the truck.
Again, the slider arms stick out 12" from the frame, with the additional 2" width of the lengthwise piece. It fits lines up great with the truck. A little bit wider than the fenders, but still inside the width of the tires.
Still need to make the other side, paint them, add end caps, and probably have the front kick in a bit and the back kick out a little. All in all it's turning out better than I'd ever anticipated! I would guess each slider is under 20lbs easy, probably under 15 by a bit. I don't know how that adds up to off the shelf sliders of this size though?
We stuck the arms against the frame, then drilled and tapped the holes. Only got one side done today.
We didn't realize just how thin the bottom of the box frame is. We only have about two threads of engagement in our 3/8" bolts. Though again, they should be getting loaded almost completely in shear so the threads shouldn't be a failure point since they aren't being loaded. We did a quick test with our jack to see if there was any significant deflection. The jack kept rolling out since the arms are angled, but we loaded the one arm up with probably 1000+ lbs and there was no visible deflection. My dad (180 lbs) almost jumped on the one arm to minimal deflection (though it's not strong in that direction, which is why it will be tacked on the top).
We then took a 68" long piece and stuck it up against the two arms bolted to the truck, and the fit was about as dead nuts as you could want it. The two arms were as close to perfectly in plane as you could get! My dad held it up and I tacked it in place, and then fully welded on the lengthwise section to the arms after unbolting from the truck.
Again, the slider arms stick out 12" from the frame, with the additional 2" width of the lengthwise piece. It fits lines up great with the truck. A little bit wider than the fenders, but still inside the width of the tires.
Still need to make the other side, paint them, add end caps, and probably have the front kick in a bit and the back kick out a little. All in all it's turning out better than I'd ever anticipated! I would guess each slider is under 20lbs easy, probably under 15 by a bit. I don't know how that adds up to off the shelf sliders of this size though?
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
I hate to be negative nancy, but what happens when you land hard on the slider? Jacking it up and supporting the truck's static weight is one thing, but weight x momentum is whole 'nuther bucket of fish.
Re: Sliders
That's definitely true. However I am assuming the truck will never fall and completely high center itself where the wheels are at full droop throughout the fall. Ideally the suspension would take some of the force and increase the impulse time on the sliders.
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
I just threw together a quick finite element model in CAD. After doing some calculations, the maximum static load at the weakest point is 3800lbs with .27" of deflection. I did the calcs and the truck can fall in total free fall .19" with the resulting .27" of deflection before it would yield. That doesn't seem like much, but that is a conservative number because the spring rate of the frame and other factors aren't included (this was a back of the envelope calculation). Also, that is assuming the truck is TOTALLY unsupported. So the tires don't have ANY weight on them. Which I don't know how you would even have that happen unless you drove off a cliff and landed only on the sliders. Even if you slip off a rock the tires will still be absorbing the weight of the truck AND increasing impulse time.
Last edited by snivilous on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
Well, that's more than I know how to do so I'll shut up.snivilous wrote:I just threw together a quick finite element model in CAD.
Re: Sliders
Do you have a screen shot of the stresses from that round of FEA?
dutchman- Resident Gorilla
- Posts : 1912
Join date : 2012-08-21
Re: Sliders
Kevin wrote:Well, that's more than I know how to do so I'll shut up.snivilous wrote:I just threw together a quick finite element model in CAD.
Questions are always more than welcome! I would rather get proven wrong and go back then be in the field and break my vehicle, or something more valuable. It just makes me have to think about everything more which is for the better!
dutchman wrote:Do you have a screen shot of the stresses from that round of FEA?
That's with a 5000lb load
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
Finished them last week, think they look good!
And they deflect the proper amount according to my analysis
And they deflect the proper amount according to my analysis
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
Good deal. Bring 'em up to the Quarterly Training Day in American Fork Canyon and you can try 'em out on Forest Lake or Mineral Basin.
Re: Sliders
I place sliders about a 1/4" from the body. That way if they start to bend upward the body stops them and it tucks the sliders in more for more clearance. I also weld them to the frame and have not had one issue with them. I made some for a cherokee once using 3"x3" angle and put them rite against the body and it worked and looked good.
gstunner- Member
- Posts : 41
Join date : 2013-04-23
Re: Sliders
cool idea. If I may offer input on the welding, since it is my current obsession, the welds look a little cold. The fillet weld you showed close up looked pretty good, but the others looked cold.
What wall thickness, what machine, wire, gas, and settings on the machine?
What wall thickness, what machine, wire, gas, and settings on the machine?
Brownfaux- Member
- Posts : 26
Join date : 2013-05-19
Re: Sliders
.125" wall, Chicago Electric 220V with 0.030" wire, 75/25 argon/air (I think), and the power was on the "2" out of 6 settings, with wire speed at 7.
A guy at work gave me the advice of using a scrap of metal and holding a puddle on it at the desired power setting and then adjusting the feed rate until it sounded good, which really helped. But I'm just shooting in the dark on the power really, I just go with what makes a nice weld and looks like it penetrates well. Any advice is great!
A guy at work gave me the advice of using a scrap of metal and holding a puddle on it at the desired power setting and then adjusting the feed rate until it sounded good, which really helped. But I'm just shooting in the dark on the power really, I just go with what makes a nice weld and looks like it penetrates well. Any advice is great!
snivilous- Member
- Posts : 118
Join date : 2013-04-03
Location : USU/Colorado
Re: Sliders
The sliders look really good on the runner. I will definitely be doing some of my own now.
Is your welder the 170 or 180 amp model? I'll post some pics of my stuff. I have a lincoln powermig140. So less power than yours, but the harbor freight ones aren't very powerful. A lot of people mod them with capacitors and stuff.
I've found 1/8 inch to be very forgiving. I'm using .025 wire now since the thickest I weld is 1/8 and most of my stuff is around .050 wall.
I'm no expert by any means, but I've been obsessing over all things welding since December trying to learn.
Is your welder the 170 or 180 amp model? I'll post some pics of my stuff. I have a lincoln powermig140. So less power than yours, but the harbor freight ones aren't very powerful. A lot of people mod them with capacitors and stuff.
I've found 1/8 inch to be very forgiving. I'm using .025 wire now since the thickest I weld is 1/8 and most of my stuff is around .050 wall.
I'm no expert by any means, but I've been obsessing over all things welding since December trying to learn.
Brownfaux- Member
- Posts : 26
Join date : 2013-05-19
Re: Sliders
I'm getting ready to put my sliders back on, you're more than welcome to come by and obsess with me!
Page 1 of 2 • 1, 2
Page 1 of 2
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
|
|
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:36 pm by the walrus
» Official MTB Thread
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:10 pm by Kevin
» 5 255/85r16 BFG Mud Terrains
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:29 am by dutchman
» Wtb 1st Gen hub
Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:09 pm by BradYoung
» Still not a 4Runner...
Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:32 pm by TRD270
» My 2007 Tacoma TRD Sport
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:53 am by Kevin
» Cool finds thread
Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:49 am by Kevin
» Camping/MTB/Something before the snow
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:20 am by Kevin
» Talk to me about TIRES
Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:21 am by Ty
» Owyhee Uplands Backcountry Byway
Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:09 pm by dutchman
» Guns'n'stuff
Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:52 am by dutchman
» September 6-9
Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:34 am by dutchman
» So this happened.
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:37 pm by Kevin
» Social media
Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:00 am by Kevin
» First 40 Miles
Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:47 am by Ty
» King of Jordan and his son in live fire training.
Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:34 pm by Kevin
» Did you miss me?
Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:17 am by Ty
» 2018 FIFA World Cup
Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:50 am by dutchman
» Dodge Ecodiesel a cheating lying no-good very bad engine?
Sun May 27, 2018 2:00 am by TRD270
» PSD Madness
Thu May 17, 2018 1:21 am by Kevin