Sliders

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Sliders

Post by snivilous on Thu May 23, 2013 12:45 pm

So I got a bunch of steel tubing to make some sliders. Though when I talked to my dad, he said that the moment caused by falling on the slider would screw up the frame or make it so the slider would bend so the frame doesn't get hurt. We're going to look into putting a transverse member from one side of the truck to the other so the sliders will leverage on that when they get hit, and then we can also beef out the gas tank area since the stock bash plate is a POS there.

I'm just wondering why people weld sliders on to their trucks. Either you screw the truck up by landing on it, or it gets bent and needs to be reshaped in which case you can't just unbolt it from the truck. Or do I just have a misconception on sliders? Because I'm figuring they get used when the truck slips off a rock to the side and falls a few inches and then a giant impulse is put on the slider.
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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Thu May 23, 2013 1:02 pm

I'm of the opinion that bolt-on sliders are for guys that aren't planning on using them. If you use enough bolts to be as strong as a good weld, then you've got so many bolt holes that the slider will tear off anyway.

That said, even the best job of welding won't stop a slider from bending into your bodywork if you land on it hard enough, but when you're wheeling that hard you're beyond caring about a little bodywork anyway Very Happy. It's got to be pretty hard to bend 1.5" DOM, though. Use quality DOM tubing, be sure to use gussets and fishplates, and good solid welds. Leave the bolt-ons for the mall crawlers.

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Thu May 23, 2013 1:49 pm

I'm not worried about the slider bending or how to mount it, my main concern is the frame bending when the truck falls on the slider. I would rather the slider break than the frame, and that frame looks pretty wimpy to be holding a 2000lb weight on the slider with a 12" lever arm.
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Re: Sliders

Post by Andrew on Thu May 23, 2013 2:06 pm

You will never land hard enough to bend your frame - unless you fall off a 100 ft. cliff...and land on your sliders...

I've come down on mine pretty hard and from a good distance of a couple of feet - never had a problem. The sliders on my Tundra are currently bolted on with Grade 8 bolts and didn't have a problem going through Hell's Revenge. I never really came down hard on them but definitely scraped over lots of rocks. Welding these would remove the bolts from the bottom of the frame and reduce the risk of tearing them off. Investigating them after Hell's showed the dragged across the slick rock a number of times...luckily none broke.
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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Thu May 23, 2013 2:19 pm

snivilous wrote:I'm not worried about the slider bending or how to mount it, my main concern is the frame bending when the truck falls on the slider. I would rather the slider break than the frame, and that frame looks pretty wimpy to be holding a 2000lb weight on the slider with a 12" lever arm.

If you're really worried about the frame, plate it. But I wouldn't worry. If Andrew's Tundra can drop a couple feet on a stick of DOM and survive, your 4Runner will be fine. Smile

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Re: Sliders

Post by dutchman on Thu May 23, 2013 2:35 pm

Like others have said it would take much more force than you're likely to see to bend the frame. I've landed on my sliders pretty good and just put a dent in the tubing. In my opinion sliders are there to get beat-up, dented, thrashed, and all that. I'd rather beat the hell out of my sliders than a door or other body panel. If anything major happens to my sliders I can cut them off, grind the frame plate flat, and weld another set on.

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:08 am

Alright, so I started designing and making my sliders today.

Via the expert use of cardboard for design and mockup:



So they will probably be 68" long or so, as that is about the distance from the front of the rear wheel well to the front mud flap. They will be bolted on using 4 of these arms. (My welds got a lot better after this one, this was my prototype piece and the machine wasn't quite dialed in).





This way the sliders can be removed if need be. There will be a piece of angle iron connecting the bottom of the frame to the arm, with two bolts that will be tapped into the frame. Then there will be one bolt on the top of the arm into the frame. This way, when force is applied to the slider it will try to rotate about the edge of the frame. The bolts on the bottom of the frame will be put into shear with the top bolt not doing anything as the top of the arm will try to be compressed into the frame. The arms will also have triangular diagonals on the outer section to reinforce the vertical segment.



I may also add one or two cross members that connect both sliders. That way, when one side is forced up the cross member will be put into tension and try to pull the other side down. Because of the larger lever arm created from the cross member relative to the distance the slider comes off from the body, it would easily be able to withstand a 2000 pound point load (the slider, assuming the frame wouldn't crumple which is another story). I would like to do this, as will reduce the moment on the frame stopping the frame from twisting where the load is.



The sliders have a 12 degree angle to them, this way they clear the body panels by an inch to allow for when the sliders deflect. They stick out from the frame 12", with an additional 2" where the lengthwise tube will be. This way they stick out far enough to act as a step. The tubing is 2x2 with .075" thick side wall. The sliders will also incorporate a kick out at the rear.

I think we (help from my dad) designed these as best can be done without doing a lot of reinforcing.

I'll post more pictures as I get them finished.
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Re: Sliders

Post by dutchman on Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:46 am

Are you planning on welding them to the side and underneath the frame rail?

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:14 am

dutchman wrote:Are you planning on welding them to the side and underneath the frame rail?

There will be two bolts tapped into the bottom of the frame.



That's really all that is needed, and two of these arms per slider. We're also going to just put a tack on the vertical part of the arm on the top of the frame to help when someone steps on it, but as far as strength for landing on rocks and stuff, the two bolts is all that is needed.
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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:57 am

I'm skeptical.  I hope you're right!  Smile

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:32 pm

So we might go to a three arm per side layout, because at a 3' separation of the current two arms, if I jack from the middle it will only lift about 1800lbs (using assumptions about the steel we are using). Though of course I can just move the jack closer to an arm to jack from.



We stuck the arms against the frame, then drilled and tapped the holes. Only got one side done today.



We didn't realize just how thin the bottom of the box frame is. We only have about two threads of engagement in our 3/8" bolts. Though again, they should be getting loaded almost completely in shear so the threads shouldn't be a failure point since they aren't being loaded. We did a quick test with our jack to see if there was any significant deflection. The jack kept rolling out since the arms are angled, but we loaded the one arm up with probably 1000+ lbs and there was no visible deflection. My dad (180 lbs) almost jumped on the one arm to minimal deflection (though it's not strong in that direction, which is why it will be tacked on the top).



We then took a 68" long piece and stuck it up against the two arms bolted to the truck, and the fit was about as dead nuts as you could want it. The two arms were as close to perfectly in plane as you could get! My dad held it up and I tacked it in place, and then fully welded on the lengthwise section to the arms after unbolting from the truck.



Again, the slider arms stick out 12" from the frame, with the additional 2" width of the lengthwise piece. It fits lines up great with the truck. A little bit wider than the fenders, but still inside the width of the tires.



Still need to make the other side, paint them, add end caps, and probably have the front kick in a bit and the back kick out a little. All in all it's turning out better than I'd ever anticipated! I would guess each slider is under 20lbs easy, probably under 15 by a bit. I don't know how that adds up to off the shelf sliders of this size though?
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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:24 am

I hate to be negative nancy, but what happens when you land hard on the slider?  Jacking it up and supporting the truck's static weight is one thing, but weight x momentum is whole 'nuther bucket of fish.

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:58 am

That's definitely true. However I am assuming the truck will never fall and completely high center itself where the wheels are at full droop throughout the fall. Ideally the suspension would take some of the force and increase the impulse time on the sliders.
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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:14 am

I just threw together a quick finite element model in CAD. After doing some calculations, the maximum static load at the weakest point is 3800lbs with .27" of deflection. I did the calcs and the truck can fall in total free fall .19" with the resulting .27" of deflection before it would yield. That doesn't seem like much, but that is a conservative number because the spring rate of the frame and other factors aren't included (this was a back of the envelope calculation). Also, that is assuming the truck is TOTALLY unsupported. So the tires don't have ANY weight on them. Which I don't know how you would even have that happen unless you drove off a cliff and landed only on the sliders. Even if you slip off a rock the tires will still be absorbing the weight of the truck AND increasing impulse time.



Last edited by snivilous on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:32 am

snivilous wrote:I just threw together a quick finite element model in CAD.
Well, that's more than I know how to do so I'll shut up. Smile

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Re: Sliders

Post by dutchman on Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:53 am

Do you have a screen shot of the stresses from that round of FEA?

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:06 am

Kevin wrote:
snivilous wrote:I just threw together a quick finite element model in CAD.
Well, that's more than I know how to do so I'll shut up. Smile

Questions are always more than welcome! I would rather get proven wrong and go back then be in the field and break my vehicle, or something more valuable. It just makes me have to think about everything more which is for the better!

dutchman wrote:Do you have a screen shot of the stresses from that round of FEA?



That's with a 5000lb load
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Re: Sliders

Post by dutchman on Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:46 am

Numbers look good

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Finished them last week, think they look good!



And they deflect the proper amount according to my analysis Very Happy 

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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:52 am

Good deal.  Bring 'em up to the Quarterly Training Day in American Fork Canyon and you can try 'em out on Forest Lake or Mineral Basin.

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Re: Sliders

Post by gstunner on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:35 am

I place sliders about a 1/4" from the body. That way if they start to bend upward the body stops them and it tucks the sliders in more for more clearance. I also weld them to the frame and have not had one issue with them. I made some for a cherokee once using 3"x3" angle and put them rite against the body and it worked and looked good.

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Re: Sliders

Post by Brownfaux on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:28 am

cool idea. If I may offer input on the welding, since it is my current obsession, the welds look a little cold. The fillet weld you showed close up looked pretty good, but the others looked cold.

What wall thickness, what machine, wire, gas, and settings on the machine?

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Re: Sliders

Post by snivilous on Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:53 am

.125" wall, Chicago Electric 220V with 0.030" wire, 75/25 argon/air (I think), and the power was on the "2" out of 6 settings, with wire speed at 7.

A guy at work gave me the advice of using a scrap of metal and holding a puddle on it at the desired power setting and then adjusting the feed rate until it sounded good, which really helped. But I'm just shooting in the dark on the power really, I just go with what makes a nice weld and looks like it penetrates well. Any advice is great!
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Re: Sliders

Post by Brownfaux on Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:44 am

The sliders look really good on the runner. I will definitely be doing some of my own now.

Is your welder the 170 or 180 amp model? I'll post some pics of my stuff. I have a lincoln powermig140. So less power than yours, but the harbor freight ones aren't very powerful. A lot of people mod them with capacitors and stuff.

I've found 1/8 inch to be very forgiving. I'm using .025 wire now since the thickest I weld is 1/8 and most of my stuff is around .050 wall.

I'm no expert by any means, but I've been obsessing over all things welding since December trying to learn.

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Re: Sliders

Post by Kevin on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:07 pm

I'm getting ready to put my sliders back on, you're more than welcome to come by and obsess with me!

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Re: Sliders

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